Seems like this post is a long time coming. Thanks to Tom Foss for finally pushing me to deal with it en masse.
Let us go straight to the Word. The ultimate authority on salvation, and good and evil works.
1. All have sinned.
“There is none righteous no not one.” Romans 3:10
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23
2. We all deserve Death and Hell because of our sin against God.
“For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23
“The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.” Psalms 9:17
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Mat 10:28 This verse is here to show that hell will consume both body and soul.
3. The Way of Salvation is Through Jesus Christ alone.
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12 (that name is Jesus and no other)
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6
4. Salvation comes through the grace of Jesus, by our belief in His power to save.
“But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved , even as they.” Act 15:11
“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Act 16:31
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”. Rom 10:9
Regarding why we are to do good things:
“For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9
This means that you cannot get to heaven or find salvation by doing good. It is a working of grace, which is through your faith, and your faith is a gift of God.
” But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Isa 64:6
ALL WE DO FADES, is worthless, anyway we fancy ourselves to be righteous is filthy except in this:
“For as by one man’s (ADAM) disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (JESUS) shall many be made righteous.” Rom 5:19 (Parenthetical Caps added, by author, for clarity.) We are made righteous in Jesus, not by anything we do, we cannot possibly do anything righteous of our own power. In the Scriptures this is expressed in the following verses from Romans 8.
Rom 8:5 “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.”
Rom 8:6 “For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.”
Rom 8:7 “Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”
Rom 8:8 “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Nothing we do without the Spirit if Jesus (the Holy Spirit) within us is pleasing to God. you receive the Holy Spirit when you choose to have faith in Jesus Christ. You choose Him, by that faith, when the Lord has called you and has given you that faith.
So why do those who are in Christ do good? Now that we are free from penalty why do we do good?
It is written: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” John 14:23 and “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15 So those who love Jesus will obey Him, because they love Him.
There is SO much more scripture on these topics, this is just a brief overview. Any one topic could be a post in and of itself. Perhaps one day I will write a series on it. For now, I pray that you will repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that you might spend eternity in heaven with Him.
Blessed is the Lord who reigns forever and ever. Blessed is the Savior who came and willingly died that we might have life eternally. Blessed be the lamb that was slain. Praise the Father who sent Him to die, Praise the Son who died willingly, Praise the Spirit who convicts us of sin, who abides within and empowers us to righteousness.
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!
Mrs. Meg Logan
Really?
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9
“He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.” 3 John 1:11
“Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of
heaven.” Matthew 5:20
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46
“They were both righteous before God, walking in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” Luke 1:6
“When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his
wickedness, and do that which is l awful and right, he shall live thereby.” Ezekiel 33:18-19
“For you render to each one according to his works.” Psalm 62:12
“I the Lord … give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.” Jeremiah 17:10
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matthew 16:27
John disagrees: “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).
As does James: “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?” (2:14)
“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” (2:17)
I’m sorry, Meg, I don’t see the word “worthless” in there. I think you’re reading your own words into the Bible. When something fades, it
does not become nothing, it becomes less. And indeed, the works we do here on Earth will seem less to us once we achieve Salvation. But
nowhere does that say “worthless.”
Funny, I think you said above that “there is none righteous, not no one.” If many are made righteous, then there are righteous people.
You quote these lengthy passages on the carnal world and the world of the spirit, and indeed you sound like a Manichean when you do so. I
wonder if you know that Manicheanism was declared heresy centuries ago. But that is neither here nor there. You are so dismissive of this
world, Meg. God created this world. He said “it is good.” And even after the fall, He “so loved the world” that He sent His son to die on it,
for us. God gave humankind dominion over this world, it was His first gift to us; how can you be so dismissive of it?
You say that works do not matter to salvation, and I will revisit that claim again. But works do matter. They matter to everyone who
has not yet faced judgment, everyone who still lives on this Earth. Few ever and none recently have returned from beyond the gates of death
to tell us of their salvation or damnation. What happens to a person after their death has no effect on what happens to the people still
living. But what one does while still living has an effect. What we do in this world affects everyone.
Imagine, if you will, that your husband dies tomorrow. Since no one is saved but through the grace of Christ, as you say, you cannot know
whether he is going to Heaven or Hell. You cannot know where you will go when you die, and thus you may never be reunited. What, then, has
more of an effect on your life–your husband’s salvation or damnation, or the things he did in this world? If you are honest to yourself, you
realize that whether he is saved or damned, you cannot know, and may never know. It has no effect on your life. But the things he did in this
world, the things that caused you to marry him, the things that have shaped your life, his works will affect you until the day you
die, if not longer. How can you say, then, that works are “worthless”?
And why do you love Jesus, Meg? Why does anyone love Jesus? Do they love him because he is the son of God, or do they love him because of
what he did and said, his works and words? If Jesus had never healed the sick, if he had never given the sermon on the mount, if he had never
ridden into Jerusalem and kicked the moneychangers from his temple, would you still love him? If Jesus had never told a parable, had never
given laws or taught his students, if he had robbed men in the streets and killed women and children with his divine hands in cold blood,
would you still love him? If he had never spoken to the masses, if he had not walked on water or fed the multitudes, if instead he spent each
night making sweaty, dirty homosexual love to his disciples, if he had said “Peter, thou art a rock, now get thee behind me, Satan, and
thrust,” would you still love him?
Works are everything, Meg. If Jesus had not done his works, he would not have been followed, he would not have been remembered, he
would not have been killed for our sins, and he would not be loved today. It is because of Christ’s works that people love him, and thus
salvation depends on works–if only Christ’s works.
But there is more. Can we fall from grace, Meg? If I murder a man in this world, will Christ deny me grace? If so, then grace is based on
works, for had I not killed that man, I would still be eligible for grace.
But if not, then how does Christ determine who receives grace, and who does not? If a murderer may receive grace and ascend into Heaven,
while a pious, peaceful person is denied grace, then how has justice been served? How does that fit with the concept of a God who “so loved
the world”?
Perhaps I read a different Bible, but in mine, it says “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” In that, I do not see a God who would condemn all of His creations to
Hellfire, for that is not the way of a loving God. I do not see a God who would give His grace to random people regardless of what they did
to their brothers and sisters, for that is not the way of a loving God. Christ said “Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is
merciful,” but the God you speak of is anything but merciful. Christ said (among other things) “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God,” he didn’t say “the peacemakers are damned to eternal Hellfire, save for my randomly-given grace. The peacemakers are therefore no better than any other sinful people.” It seems to me that Christ believed deeply in the value of works.
Take a look at your quotations, Meg. Nearly all of them, certainly all that clearly support your viewpoint, come from Romans. What book do you follow: Romans or the Bible? Who do you worship: Paul of Tarsus or Jesus of Nazareth?
Yes, there is much scripture on these topics, and sadly so much of it is contradictory that trying to believe in all of it is enough to drive a person mad. Thankfully, we have the wisdom of Proverbs 14:15 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21 to guide us: “The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going” and “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” God’s greatest gifts to us are the capacities for reason and doubt; if we follow our conscience, if we put our trust in the Lord, if we show faith–real, true faith–then we cannot be led astray, for we are loved by the Almighty.
And if God is not loving, if His love suffereth not long and is easily provoked, then He is not worth our worship. If God would condemn all but a randomly chosen few of His creation, if that is what little He gave his only begotten son for, then it is not the Earth that has fallen, but God. And so, since God cannot be fallen, He must be loving. If He is loving, then your version of “salvation” is nonsensical.
I hope someday you come to understand that.
There are a few things that need addressing:
1. You misunderstand my position, and the position of scripture regarding the value of “works”. I never said that works are not important, but they are not what you are saved by. You could never behave well enough to be saved by your works. Works are a “fruit” of faith. Faith without works is dead, not because faith has no value, but because saying you have faith doesn’t make it true. If you truly have faith your life will reflect that. First, faith, then works, why? because we love Him, why do we love Him? Because He first loved us.
you say: “salvation depends on works–if only Christ’s works.” Uhm, that is EXACTLY what I was saying. Our works are as filthy rags, they cannot afford us Heaven or Salvation. But Christ’s work on the cross has bridged the gap. Believing that He did that, that He COULD do that, and that He did it for the world, and myself (as part of that world), is what gains you salvation. It is what changes your heart, and what causes you to bear the fruit of HIS righteousness. “I am the true vine.” and “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” Jhn 15:4 (which is why one can be unrighteous and yet, righteous, we are righteous in Him, another way to put it is that Christ WITHIN us, is righteous.)
2. you say: “Perhaps I read a different Bible, but in mine, it says “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.†In that, I do not see a God who would condemn all of His creations to Hellfire, for that is not the way of a loving God.”
When did I ever imply that God would send everyone to hell? You quote a scripture that means precisely what I am stating. Belief in Jesus gains you everlasting life. It is pretty simple. First faith/belief in Jesus, then works as we abide in Him. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 .
Perhaps you think me a Calvinist? I’m not sure where you find that, perhaps I poorly explained my position. I am neither a strict Calvinist, nor an Armenian. Truly I believe the scriptures take a middle ground. That is a whole OTHER argument. If you would like to read about my perspective on that you can go to this site : http://www.calvarychapel.com/?show=Resources.Ebooks.calvinismarminianismandth .
I find it amazing that all this arguing comes from an Agnostic. Truly, how you can say all that you say and yet not see the Truth amazes me. You have a profound knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, but you have misunderstood and misrepresented and fought against it vehemently. It is a sad day. The Lord has shown you His Word, but you are stiff-necked and willful. “Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye.” In Romans 10:21 , and I think this one applies to you too “And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.” John 5:40 .
How do you suppose we understand or identify true faith in a (hu)man? I say it is by their fruit, defined in His Word, “we will know them by their fruit.” Those works which are tested against the scriptures. “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”… 2 Titus 3:16 . The scriptures clearly define the fruit of the Spirit which are unto life:
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22- 25
Mrs. Meg Logan
I don’t know how much I’ve misunderstood the scriptural position. I think Psalm 62:12, Jeremiah 17:10, and Matthew 16:27 are pretty clear on the matter. Do your verses somehow invalidate mine? Are your verses more divinely inspired?
I disagree. There is a difference between “saying you have faith” and actually having faith. I can say anything; believing it is another matter entirely. Similarly, one can believe something and not act on it. I believe I should eat more healthy food, but I don’t always act on that belief. Sadly, I think many, perhaps even a majority of Christians are the same way: they believe in Christ and the wonderful things he said, but they fail to follow his example.
But, let us follow your reasoning. You say either one has works (for works prove faith), or one does not have faith. If faith is necessary for salvation, if Christ only saves those who have faith (as suggested by John 3:16 and 14:6), then works are necessary for salvation. If faith is not necessary for salvation, then how is grace given? Does Christ give his grace randomly? Is John 14:6 wrong?
We love him because he loved us? Isn’t “loving someone” a work? If Christ loved us, but was a rapist and a murderer, should we still love him? I think you downplay Christ’s works.
I’m sorry, I missed the chapter and verse where it was explained that we are not righteous, only that Christ is righteous within us. Could you cite that?
You said: “We all deserve Death and Hell because of our sin against God.”
Are all who believe given salvation? Do all believers merit Christ’s grace and make it into Heaven? Perhaps I misunderstood you; I thought you were arguing that grace was given more sparingly. If all who believe in Christ get Salvation, then that’s not so bad.
Except, of course, for all the people who never have a chance to know Christ, and all who died before Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, but that’s a whole different theological arugment entirely.
I can’t say I necessarily pegged you as a Calvinist, especially given that we haven’t tread into the matter of free will here. I will say that much of your language parallels the sermons of the 18th Century Calvinist preacher Jonathan Edwards.
As Pilate asked, “what is truth?” Is truth what I find in a book written by men, translated by men, edited by men, all with their own agendas and biases apart from the word and inspiration of God? Is truth what Paul of Tarsus says about Christ, though he never met him, except in a vision? Is truth what the gospels say of Christ’s teachings? Or is truth what is written in the book of nature, the only book we have which God Himself may have written? I believe it is true that Christ existed. I believe it is true that he said and did wonderful things, much of which has gone ignored by the people who profess to follow him two millennia later. I believe in the truth that the Bible is a book that, divinely inspired or not, has been written and altered by flawed human hands. And beyond that? Beyond that, I believe that we have been given by our Creator several fantastic gifts. We have the world, a gift which we have mistreated and squandered. We have our senses, which allow us to experience that world. We have intelligence and conscience, and these are the greatest gifts we have been given, for alone among the species which populate this Earth, alone perhaps in the universe, we have the ability to consider the other gifts which we have been given. Alone among all others in this creation, we have been given the capacity for doubt, for reason, the ability to understand God’s world through the senses we have been given. And yet, some would disregard all that and follow men’s words. I trust the world over the word, Meg, for despite all our changes to this world, we cannot fundamentally alter it; the same sadly cannot be said for the Bible, and the history of that beleagured text bears this out.
I haven’t fought against anything, except my own human tendency to make assumptions and seek the easy answer. I accept one truth, the truth that I do not and cannot know anything with absolute certainty. After that, I must put my trust in the gifts I have been given–my mind, my senses, and this world. I’m anything but stiff-necked and willful, all the “truths” I believe are tentative and transitory, every belief I have is based around the caveat that I do not and cannot know everything, so there is the very real possibility that I am wrong about anything or everything. The only thing I can be certain of is that I lack knowledge, that I do not know, and so I am agnostic (literally, “without knowledge”). I can only trust what I sense, and what I can reason, and I know that new information may overturn that at any time.
Or, as 1 Thessalonians 5:21 says, “Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.” I believe what has been proven to me, and I hold fast to those beliefs so long as they are good, so long as they remain proven to me. “The simple man believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going,” (Proverbs 14:15) and I strive to be that prudent man, I “look well” for myself.
What have I misunderstood? What have I misrepresented? While you may believe in the absolute truth of your scriptural interpretation, I see no reason why your understanding is superior to any other. I do not see how the passages you use to support your beliefs are more valid than the passages I have used.
But what of those who bear the fruit without having faith? Do you recall the story of the Good Samaritan? How the Samaritan, who was not Jewish, who did not share the Jew’s beliefs, was nonetheless better at exemplifying the Jewish beliefs than the priest and the Levite who left the man to die. And though those men had faith, it was the man without that faith who displayed the works, who loved his neighbor as himself, and (according to Lk 10:27) would have achieved salvation. Perhaps I am “misunderstanding” again, but it seems that Christ here is saying that sometimes the nonbelievers are better at exemplifying the beliefs than the believers. If that is the case, then how can we understand and identify true faith in a human?
Though I do not think we need to do so. It is not for us to judge who has faith and who does not. I do not think Christ is limited to the same senses we are; I think he would be able to tell “true faith” whether or not there were works to back it up. If, as you say, works do not matter for salvation, he’d kind of have to be able to do that. It’s this sort of argument where you come across as Calvinist, I suppose. ‘You’ll know the elect because they behave like elect,” the reasoning circles around: since good works do not matter for salvation, you’ll know who is worthy of salvation because they do good works.
I like that Galatians quote; though I think the most beautiful parts of the Bible are the things Christ said in the Gospels, Galatians has some of the best non-Gospel lines. One of my favorites is “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).
If only the rest of Paul’s writings could be of equal beauty; sadly Paul managed to write some of the most horrible things in the book as well as some of the most beautiful, and yet some Christians seem to worship him more than Jesus himself. And here, Titus, Romans, Philippians, Galatians…in this whole post, you only have two quotations from the Gospels, only two things said by Christ, and twice as many things said by a man who only met Christ in a vision. The vast majority of your quotations come from Paul of Tarsus, who only met Christ in a vision, after his death. Why should we trust his words over the things Christ said when he was alive? Who’s more important to Christianity, Meg, Christ or Paul?
Tom,
Well for the first time since I met you, you finally sound like you are not attacking me.
You have said nothing in here that is vehement, or nasty. I am grateful. I am not against a true seeking of truth. I am against people dismissing arguments because they find what they argue for to be incredulous.
I still feel that on some things you are not understanding me. You see, I read your comment, and you say “I disagree. There is a difference between “saying you have faith†and actually having faith. I can say anything; believing it is another matter entirely” But I agree that there is a difference between saying it and believing it. I have been trying to explain that to you, but instead of understanding what I have said, you say you disagree. Now, either you DO understand that I am saying this same thing (about true and false faith) and you are trying to be “devils advocate” and keep switching your position, or you truly do not see that we are saying the same thing here. Whatever it is, let it be put straight.
Furthermore, I believe that there are many people who say they believe but who will not be saved:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Mat 7:21-23. But for a more thorough understanding read all of Mat 7.
You see, yes works are important. But it is the works of Christ, not works of your free will or of your flesh. It is the “walking by the Spirit” works.
This is a very difficult thing to express piecemeal in a comments box. I’m not trying to go tit for tat here, to argue scriptures back and forth. You see, I believe all the scriptures are saying the truth. Sometimes I believe it is hard to understand. Sometime it is completely beyond me to understand. But you are trying to pit scripture against scripture and I am trying to see scripture as consistent. I believe when you read any book, you must use that book to understand it. You don’t read five verses from the Illiad and try to guess at what it is saying. You read the whole thing, and understand the parts in the context of the whole. The same with the Bible.
I also do not claim to know everything. I am well aware of the fact that I know very little compared to God, and to many other humans! But there is one thing that I do know. “Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” (1Cr 2:2 “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”)
Regarding works, how do yours hold up? Are you going to heaven? Have you been good enough for the perfection and holiness of God?
Have you ever broken even one of the Ten Commandments? Even once? Ever steal something? Ever tell a lie? Ever lust after a woman?
Tell me Tom, are you good enough to gain heaven?
Mrs. Meg Logan
It’s funny, you know – as a secular humanist I can be content with saying to myself, “Best to be good to my fellow man simply because it is the kind thing to do; to take care of myself, my family, the land and water and air for the good of my brothers and sisters of the earth; to honor my committments because that is the honorable thing to do; and not to treat others in ways that would be unpleasant to be treated because they are worthy of my love and respect just by virtue of their being alive. I am afraid of death, of no longer existing, so I will try to live my life in a way that increases happiness and knowledge in the world as opposed to in another way.”
And, interestingly, there’s no need for elaborate quotations to justify my beliefs, for the use of loopholes (e.g. the dubious distinction between separation and divorce!), for the fear of scary hellfire to motivate me (like, if God weren’t watching you could sort of get away with doing the bad stuff, but since you fear reprisal you won’t?), or for the need to feel dirty and sinful and ashamed of who I am (eek- a girl!) or to tolerate oppression in order to please the powers that be.
It’s so much more pleasant over here, Meg. I’m so sorry for you that you spend so much time tied up in knots. I hope you can expand your conciousness someday and free yourself from the constraints of your religion of Men’s dictates.
I’d pray for you but … [smile] you know. Nah, I’ll pray for you anyway, knowing that it probably won’t help, but just because it’s the kind thing to do.
While I admit that I was hostile for the first couple of posts, I’ve not intended any nastiness or vehemence in the last several comments. Unfortunately, when it’s a matter of pure text on a screen, tone rarely comes across as intended, and the use of smilies and other such artifacts to attempt to conteract that is ambiguous at best and takes away from intellectual discourse.
Indeed. You said “but because saying you have faith doesn’t make it true. If you truly have faith your life will reflect that.” Now, I took that to mean the following:
1. Those who have faith also do good works, and that is how we know they have faith.
2. Those who do not do good works, but say they have faith, do not actually have faith.
I may have misinterpreted that, and if so, I apologize, but that seems to me to be the implication. My disagreement comes in the fact that I think there is a middle ground.
1. There are those who claim they have faith, and do not.
2. There are those who do have faith, but do not do good works.
3. There are those who have faith and do good works.
Now, my understanding was that you would omit the second group, since those who have faith will reflect it in their lives. But I think there are several problems with that viewpoint. We people cannot know who has “true faith,” because as you are well aware, people may claim to have faith when they do not. And similarly, people may do the same good works as those with “true faith” while possessing no faith whatsoever, or faith in something different; Christians do not have a monopoly on good works.
But whether or not we can know the “true faith” of people, God is not so limited. I think He would be able to discern between those with faith and those without, regardless of their works or what they say; and, if as you say works are immaterial to salvation, He would have to possess such an ability.
It seems to me here that Christ is saying those who work iniquity, but still profess to do good in Christ’s name, will not make it into Heaven, while those who do “the will of [the] Father” will. I think this undercuts your argument at least as much as it supports it, as that first sentence fairly clearly states ‘not everyone who calls on the lord will make it into heaven, but those who do the will of God will.’
Furthermore, if we look one verse farther than what you quoted, Christ says “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock;” which seems again to be an endorsement of the importance of works.
Incidentally, I love Matthew 7, and it’s always nice to have an excuse to read it again. Sadly, I know all too many Christians who ought to pay more attention to 7:1, 7:3-5, and 7:12. Unfortunately, this is another case where the word of Christ contradicts the words of Paul and Luke, specifically Acts 2:21 (”And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved”) and Romans 10:13 (”For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”). Now, as I said before, I tend to trust Christ over Paul, and so I’d value the passage you quoted more highly, but I’m not entirely convinced by your interpretation thereof. It’s nice to see you quoting from the Gospels, though.
But what you’re saying here is that only Christ’s works are important. So, when Matthew said (nine chapters hence) “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works” was he saying that Christ will reward each according to Christ’s works? When John said “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation,” what did he mean? Because I can’t read that any way to suggest that he’s saying only Christ’s works matter.
I can’t imagine how difficult that must be.
Indeed, but when one part of the Iliad directly contradicts another part, then what do you do? I’m afraid that it’s been some time since I read the Iliad, and I had a poor translation on top of it, which made for less than memorable reading. Even so, it’s a fantastic comparison, and I’m glad you brought it up. See, the Iliad shares many features with the Bible, especially with the Old Testament, but there are major similarities with both halves of the Biblical story. While it was thought for a long time that both the Iliad and the Odyssey were composed by the same poet, the blind bard Homer, that is now seen as highly unlikely. In reality, while there may have been a common source for both poems, and while the Odyssey is coherent enough to suggest that it was written by a single voice, the Iliad is clearly the product of multiple authors adding to a core story. We know that the Iliad was passed down orally for many generations, and the general consensus seems to be that each of these storytellers embellished different details and added their own flourishes, which were picked up by other storytellers, until this core tale accumulated whole chapters of embellishment. And, eventually, the Iliad was written down, and it has been since translated in many different iterations from Greek into English, and each translation differs from the rest. Thankfully, though, it was written down in pretty much the language of the people who were involved in the original events.
The history of the Bible is similar, though more convoluted, and if you want to see something that cannot be fit piecemeal into a comment box, it’s that. We know that many of the books of the Old Testament were passed down orally for generations before they were ultimately translated into Old Hebrew, and those had to be further translated even before King James’ people could translate it into English. And similar things can be said for the New Testament; the Gospels were not written down until quite some time after Christ’s death, and then they were written in Greek, which means that all he said in Aramaic was translated into Greek by the Gospel authors. That Greek translation may have had a more direct route to English than the Old Hebrew, but if you look at any two copies of the Iliad by different translators, you’ll see that even Greek-to-English leaves significant room for change and lost meaning.
And this is to say nothing of the many copies that were made of those old books, before their translation into the form we know. As far as I’m aware, there are no surviving original copies of any books of the Bible, and all we have are copies of those manuscripts. This means that all, or at least a vast majority, of the Bible here on my desk, is based on multiple translations of multiple copies of books written by different authors at different times, after having been passed down orally (at least in most cases of the OT and possibly some of the NT), which were assembled by early churches and edited and canonized by various councils. Consistency would be a true miracle. And I think it’s clear that some parts of the Bible disagree with other parts; heck, Matthew and Luke disagree on who Joseph’s father was.
But I think on the truly important matters, among those the teachings of Jesus, the Bible is consistent. And I needen’t know that the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim to understand the life and teachings of Jesus.
However, I don’t think either of us is really arguing “scripture against scripture,” nor are either of us taking a holistic view of the text. You pick and choose the verses and chapters which support your interpretation, and you interpret other verses and chapters through that lens; I do the same. We all do the same; there is no such thing as reading without interpretation. And given that neither of us knows the mind of God, neither of us was able to hear the teachings of Christ first-hand, neither of us is able to go to Him and ask for clarification, neither of us can be more correct in interpretation than the other. I’m sure that won’t stop me from trying to get you to fit the teachings of Christ into your Paulian interpretation any more than it will stop you from explaining to me your preferred doctrine on salvation and works.
I’m afraid that’s one more thing than I can claim to know, for despite what I may believe and trust, despite what books may say, I can only truly know what I experience myself. And even that knowledge is subject to some measure of doubt and revision. All other things are relegated to how much I trust others.
And I trust the Bible, at least to some degree. I trust that the Gospels give an accurate description of the teachings of Jesus Christ. On other matters, however, my trust is lessened; I see little reason why I should trust Paul of Tarsus over the Gospel writers, and I trust to the flaws and fallacies of the men who passed, wrote, translated, and edited the Bible that they did not do so in a way perfectly free of bias, political leanings, and error. But I must trust my experiences first, and the only way I can directly experience God is through his grand creation and through the senses and intellect He has given me.
I could be snarky here, and ask you which Ten Commandments you mean (Ex 20, Ex 34, or Mat 19:16-19), but I won’t. I could ask you which set of commandments says that it is wrong to lust after a woman, but I won’t.
Instead, I’ll simply say this: I don’t presume to know the mind of God, and no matter which of us is correct about salvation, my own is not in my hands, but in God’s. If you are right, then my works are meaningless to the Lord. If I am correct, then it still remains up to God to decide what my works and sins, and what His mercy and forgiveness, amount to.
And that’s why I spend so little time considering my salvation; in fact, it seems selfish to me, “me-ist,” if you will, to be so concerned about my life, my soul, my afterlife. Instead, I work to make this world better for the people around me. After all, I know this world, I know that the things I do here matter to the people here, and so I can do my best to leave this world a better place than it was when I came into it. And then, no matter what happens to me and my soul, I know that I helped others for the sake of helping them, and not for some perceived threat or reward. None of us knows what lies beyond the veil, so we do our works here to make life better for our brothers and sisters in this world, regardless of what the next has in store. So, I don’t know whether or not I will go to Heaven, Meg. I don’t really care. Doing good because you expect a reward is not virtue; one cannot be “virtuous for pay.” I do good things because it is right to do them, and because by doing them I may enrich the lives of others. The rest is up to God.
Tom,
As I am crunched for time due to the Christmas season, and planning for another trip with two young children, I am going to have to return to our conversation at another time. I do not know if I will be able to get to this until after Christmas. I hope I will be able to, but for now, let me say in January, I will re-address these conversations.
I hope you understand.
Mrs. Meg Logan