Since I needed to put a bit about the sin of divorce on the front page here for Lux Venit, I thought I would copy and paste this conversation from my comments on the article “Two Complaints“. The other post I have written regarding the sin of divorce is in the tab at the top of the page. This is impromtu, simply cut and pasted from the comments box… but it is pretty clear. –Mrs. Meg Logan
# Shawn Says:
August 25th, 2006 at 3:13 pm e
Meg, I think I have to respectfully disagree with you. Nowhere in the Bible does it say, “do not ever get divorced.†It says God hates divorce. God also hates sin, but plenty of people sin.
1 Corinthians 7:15
1 Corinthians 7:15″But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.”
(The Message)
15-16On the other hand, if the unbelieving spouse walks out, you’ve got to let him or her go. You don’t have to hold on desperately. God has called us to make the best of it, as peacefully as we can. You never know, wife: The way you handle this might bring your husband not only back to you but to God. You never know, husband: The way you handle this might bring your wife not only back to you but to God.
# meg Says:
August 25th, 2006 at 4:15 pm e
Shawn,
You are welcome to disagree with me, but really it isn’t ME with whom you are disagreeing. You are saying you disagree with God Himself and you call Him a Liar.
I don’t even really know what to say to you, because your issue isn’t whether God hates divorce or not. You freely admit that He does when you say “It says God hates divorce.†Your issue is that because “plenty of people sin†it is therefore OK to do so.
Not only do you make sin seem trivial.. but you call God a liar by saying that He will excuse our sin (which He hates) because others do it. He never makes this claim not once, EVER. If this were a possiblilty then we would not need Jesus’ blood to save us from hell. Thereby you are saying that what He did on that cross was all for naught, and this is outright heresy.
Quoting “the Message†does not do ANY convincing at all. It is a false gospel, a lie from the pit. It is watered down “Christianityâ€, which is so diluted it cannot even be considered Christian. The Message is a book written by men for men to tickle their ears and tell them what they want to hear. If you want to make some sort of serious arguement against the Word and if divorce is a sin and therefore WRONG, then please use a REAL Bible. (Preferably KJV, but I will be lenient and accept other closer translations such as NKJV or NIV.)
Shawn, I truly hope that you have read my most recent post, “What Does It Mean to be a True Christianâ€. Examine yourself, and ask the Lord to examine your heart and reveal any wicked way within you, and to lead you inthe way everlasting†(Psalm 139).
–
Mrs. Meg Logan
# Jake Says:
August 25th, 2006 at 10:01 pm e
Meg, your response to Shawn makes it pretty clear that it’s not the Bible you think is infallible, but rather your own interpretation of it. Can you not see how self-serving and ultimately dishonest this is?
FWIW, I looked up the verses Shawn referenced at the Blue Letter Bible (a website that has several different versions of the bible), and it’s pretty clear that Shawn’s interpretation is correct. Paul is saying that if you are married to an unbeliever, and if that unbeliever leaves you, that that is okay. He doesn’t say anything about remarriage, so I don’t know if that would be okay, but certainly the separation is allowed.
BTW, you keep saying that you know God thinks such-and-such because the bible says so. You still haven’t supported the assumption that the bible actually contains the word or wishes of God.
# Shawn Says:
August 26th, 2006 at 9:51 am e
Meg, I think you misunderstood my comment.
I’m not saying it’s OK to divorce. I’m saying Paul says it’s OK under certain circumstances, which refutes your statement that “It is NOT God’s will for people to divorce, it has never been His will†which clearly is in opposition to Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians.
God will excuse our sin if we ask for forgiveness.
I can’t help but notice an almost defensive tone in your reply. I’m by no means attacking you, I was simply raising a point for discussion.
# Rand Says:
August 26th, 2006 at 1:04 pm e
What a mess! The nonsense one reads when unbelievers try to make sense of Scripture! How true the following verse is:
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.†(1 Corinthians 2:14)
Divorce is sin. Therefore, it can never be said that it is God’s will for someone to get a divorce. So what of 1 Corinthians 7:15
1 Corinthians 7:15″But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.”
which some here have made a big issue of? Well, let’s have a look at the passage from a real translation:
“But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?†(1 Corinthians 7:12-16)
The above passage can only be interpreted as an “escape clause†out of marriage by those who want it to say so (that, btw, is called eisegesis). What Paul was dealing with in this passage isn’t with whether it is God’s will that some Christians be divorced, but rather, with what is a saints responsiblitly in their relationship to an unbelieveing spouse.
First, Paul lays out that a saint is not to leave an unbelieveing spouse, but rather, he/she is to remain in the marriage in the hopes of raising godly children, and perhaps even, by the good conduct of the believer, be used in the salvation of the unbeliever. An important teaching since believers may have gotten the opposite understanding out 2 Corinthians 6:14, which of course, speaks of unmarried souls. Anyway, that’s the positive. Then, Paul gives us the negative. If the unbelieving spouse wants no part of the believer and takes off, then the believer is not guilty of the sin of divorce; it’s not his/her fault. The believer is “not under bondage in such cases.â€
God hates sin. God hates divorce. He hates divorce for two critical reasons. The above passage does not give us an out clause from God’s hatred of divorce; rather, it gives us who the Lord will be angry with in such a situation. So why does God hate divorce? Why is it grievous sin?
Ephesians 5:25-33. Marriage is a picture, a type, of the relationship between Christ and His church. Just as the woman is to be submitted to her husband, the church is to be submitted to Christ. Just as a man is to love his wife as his own body, so does Jesus love the church with an amazing, self-sacrificial love. Divorce then becomes a picture of Christ leaving the church, which of course, is blasphemy.
Ecclesiastes 5:2-6. Vows. Vows are important to God. He keeps track of every single one of them. When one gets married, he/she promises to be with their spouse, for better or worse, ’till death separates them. That’s the vow. God takes no pleasure in the words of the foolish, and God’s anger will be on those who foolishly vow, and do not pay.
So, in conclusion, Meg was 100% right in her claim: “It is NOT God’s will for people to divorce, it has never been His will, it is clearly written in Scripture what His will is in regards to this there can be no question.†Shawn and Jake notwithstanding.
Oh! and Jake… before claiming to know anything about Scripture, how about reading the Book beforehand. It is easy to take a section of Scripture out of context and make it say whatever you want. Also, may I encourage you to, as you were able to do for so long, not be so caustic in your comments. I don’t know what bug bit you of late, but you are more and more acting like the garden variety homosexual/queer that I meet during my evangelistic efforts.
Hoping for more peace…
Rand
Seems you’ve had a bit of poo flung on you. I can’t really say you’re not deserving.
Enjoy!
It would seem that Scripture is proven true once again! Look Look! I am hated by the world for His cause! In this I find great joy. As it is written “He who loses his life for MY sake, will find it.” and ” If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world the world would love his own; but because ye are not of the world but I have chosen you out of the world therefore the world hateth you.” John 15:18,19
And I count it all blessing for His names sake.
Janie, I pray for your soul that the Hound of Heaven might chase you down, and grant you the gift of eternal life through Christ Jesus, who bore away the sins of the world. Though you speak evil against me, I harbor no ill will towards you. I hope that you return to read more about the Lord who loved you enough to send His Son to die, that you might be reconciled unto Him and spared eternal Hell. Repent therefore, and believe on the Christ, that you might have everlasting life.
Mrs. Meg Logan
You can say I am not being compassionate (I might agree, since that IS NOT MY GIFT, LOL.) But I tend to think I am just being HONEST.
Honesty (granted, coated in a righteousness and an in ability to see alternatives) not withstanding, you are in this statement, I think missing the whole point of Jesus’s message, particularly just about every parable he ever told.
Compassion isn’t a “gift”.
Compassion is a choice.
The prodigal son wasn’t forgiven by his father because his father was “gifted” with forgiveness. The father made the choice to forgive.
The samaritan didn’t help the stranger because he was “gifted” to help. His assistance was a choice.
It would seem, on this issue, you would rather sit at the “place of honor” and judge others rather than take the place of the humble and forgive others. We are called to forgive; let God judge his own on his own terms, not ours.
Hey, I’m just the messenger, lady.
Nobody hates you, so you can quit with the martyr complex stuff. It’s masochistic, and rather melodramatic, not to mention just plain silly.
As for learning about your weird fantasy of dead people, I know enough about it to know I don’t want any part of it. Not that Jesus was a bad fella, but no thanks. The folks who call themselves by his title are mostly about spreading ignorance and hate. They force it on whoever they can, and kill whoever they can’t. I’m not really down with that.
One other quick question, Meg. You mentioned that you are praying for me. Are you also praying for my one true love Kate? Not that it really matters, I’m just curious. Also, easy on the Hounds of Heaven thing. I like dogs, but being chased by hounds doesn’t sound like a lot of fun.
Thanks.
Janie, I don’t know who your “true love kate” is, I have never been addressed by her. If you are trying to flaunt your sin in my face in order to taunt me, you should be aware that I am not afraid of your sin, but you ought to be afraid of the consequences of it. To be honest, I have committed atrocious sins in my lifetime, and yours aren’t any worse than mine. Regarding the Hound of Heaven, I know it isn’t terribly FUN to be pursued by Him, but yielding to Him is not only FUN but Freeing. Conviction of sin is never fun, it is often painful, but forgiveness is sweet bliss.
If you do not like to hear about my God and the wonderful things He has done, then leave. There is nothing keeping you reading. I hope that you will choose to allow the Holy Spirit to soften your heart, so that when you kneel before the Lord you will be with those who are going to live eternally with Him, and not as those who are kneeling for a brief moment before they spend eternity in Hell. It really doesn’t matter how much you know about Him, it only matters if you choose to believe on Him for your salvation. One day “every knee will bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord”, this means you.
I urge you to make the right decision this side of eternity, that it might go well with you.
Regarding if people hate me, I really don’t worry about it too much. What I spoke above was a bit tongue in cheek… Though, it is also true. Flinging “poo” is something people do to those whom they despise. Read your history to figure that out. Or even better, go to a prison and have some flung on you IRL, because those who fling despise your freedom… So it is accurate to say that I am hated for my love of the Savior.
Read the Bible. When you do you ought to pray that the Lord would be merciful to you, and open your eyes that you might see.
I will continue to pray for you.
Mrs. Meg Logan
You said, “Janie, I don’t know who your “true love Kate†is,…”. That’s not exactly true, now is it, Meg?
Since you clicked over to my blog not once, but twice straight from your admin page, I know you’ve been there, and it would take about 30 seconds for any thinking person to know exactly who Kate is. Not that it matters, I was just wondering if your grace extended to my love, or just me, or really neither since we’re such disgusting sinners as to go around loving outside your rulebook. Interesting that you should lie about such a trivial thing, though.
You also made the statement, “There is nothing keeping you reading.”
Au contraire. I have to admit I’m always morbidly fascinated by strange people. Especially the ones who believe in invisible skychildren who are purported to commit genocide whenever they don’t get their way. I just have to stand agape whenever I encounter folks who believe in invisible gods, and advocate ignorance.
As a fer-instance, let’s look at your post above. It’s really creepy that you would hold to the idea that divorcing a wife-beater is a sin. I mean, you can believe whatever whacked out stuff you want, but when you convince a woman to put her life and the lives of her children in dire jeapordy for no better reason than it might go against the rules of your dusty old anthology of fairy tales, you are just as responsible as the wife-beater when the beaten wife and kids wind up dead. And yet, you would hold her up as a shining example of what a woman should do in such a case. It’s terribly, terribly creepy, don’t ya’ think?
And again, you’re not hated AFAIK. It’s more like we’re all gawking at a particularly bloody car wreck.
As for reading the bible… already read it. Cover to cover, and more than once. You? Memorized large chunks of it at a time. And the more I knew about it, the more I realized what a crock it really is. Living your whole life according to it makes as much sense as living your whole life according to the Iliad, which is to say not at all.
Again, I didn’t come here to pick a fight, I was just interested in your reaction to the link above. Now I’m stuck staring at the sillyness.